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Turing

Denver

Turing

Avg Rating:4.79 ( 196 reviews )

Turing School of Software & Design is a federally accredited, 7-month, full-time online training program based in Denver, CO turning driven students into professional developers. Students who take their Back End Engineering Program or their Front End Engineering Program will be surrounded by a supportive team dedicated to their career success. Turing's mission is to unlock human potential by training a diverse, inclusive student body to succeed in high-fulfillment technical careers, while Turing's vision is a world powered by technology where the people building it represent the people using it. Turing is the brainchild of Jeff Casimir and Jumpstart Labs (you might recognize these names from Hungry Academy and gSchool, among other achievements). The staff at Turing emphasizes their educational experience, not just their years as developers, and promises that successful graduates of the school will be valuable contributors to the company they choose to work for through community-driven education.

The application process is rolling and requires written answers to reflection questions, and a logic challenge. Students in the Turing program will learn TDD with Ruby, Ruby Web Applications with Sinatra & Rails, Professional Web Applications, and High-Performance Applications with APIs and Services. In addition, Turing now accepts the GI Bill and offers M-1 visa assistance.

 

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  • Back-End Engineering

    Apply
    Ruby, Rails, Git, CSS, HTML, JavaScript, jQuery, Sinatra, SQL
    OnlineFull Time40 Hours/week27 Weeks
    Start Date Rolling Start Date
    Cost$20,000
    Class size28
    LocationDenver
    Moving from the basics of object-oriented programming and software execution to building database-backed web applications in Sinatra and Rails, our Back-End Engineering program provides the fundamental skills to launch your career in programming.
    Financing
    Deposit$1,200
    Financing
    Tuition PlansAlternative Financing available for students who are not approved by our lending partners.
    Refund / GuaranteeDeposit is fully refundable. Students may return their issued laptop for a refund of the deposit. Tuition is refundable on a pro rata basis.
    Scholarship$4,000 Diversity Scholarship
    Getting in
    Minimum Skill LevelN/A
    Placement TestYes
    InterviewYes
  • Front-End Engineering

    Apply
    Start Date Rolling Start Date
    Cost$20,000
    Class size28
    LocationDenver
    Students in our Front-End Engineering program build the skills and knowledge to be a professional front end developer. They start by building a solid foundation with JavaScript and HTML/CSS, then layer on React and related libraries. They mix in some APIs and data storage, and FEE students are building production-ready web applications.
    Financing
    Deposit$1,200
    Financing
    Tuition PlansAlternative Financing available for students who are not approved by our lending partners.
    Refund / GuaranteeDeposit is fully refundable. Students may return their issued laptop for a refund of the deposit. Tuition is refundable on a pro rata basis.
    Scholarship$4,000 Diversity Scholarship
    Getting in
    Minimum Skill LevelN/A
    Placement TestYes
    InterviewYes
  • Tim Tyrrell  User Photo
    Tim Tyrrell • Developer Verified via GitHub
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    They gave me a sense of purpose.

    They taught me what hard-work looks like, what it leads to, and why it's important.

    They challenged me to be a better me. They asked me to challenge others to be a better them.

    They gave me a sense of empathy for those I assumed had always had had a similar experience to mine, which was a wildly inaccurate assumption.

    They gave me a skill. Then, they gave me another skill. They gave me skills that build on skills.

    They gave me their effort. They gave me their support.

    They gave me a community to be inspired by. They gave me people I can depend on. They gave me better firends.

    They gave me an opportunity to be proud of my self. They gave me the chance to lift up others.

    They gave me a chance to contemplate impact and responsibility.

    They gave me tough love when I needed it. They gave me perspective.

    They didn't give me a choice to do it my way, instead, they showed me the right way to do it.

    They gave me a chance to help make the community feel more like it was mine when I was a student.

    They gave me a career.

    They gave me ladder.

    They threw me a life preserver when I was floundering.

    They listened to me.

    They gave me a hand when I was down.

    They cared about me and my success. They care about me and my success.

    They gave me an opportunity to change my life. They gave me an opportunity to change the lives of my grandchildren.

    I don't have any grandchildren.

    They gave me a place to belong. They gave me a sense of what equality actually looks like.

    They gave me advice on how to grow. They grew me. 

    They keep giving to me. They will never stop giving to me. 

    Every day this community grows in size, so do my future prospects within this industry. Every time a Turing alumni does their job well, my name gains respect by association. And, every time I represent myself well, I have the opportunity to fuel that respect as well.

    What else will Turing give me in a year? In five? In ten? 

    These are questions I feel privileged to ask.

    How can I ever give enough back to them? 

    Truthfully, I can't. They've given me a new life. A better life. How do you repay that? 

    But, I will still keep giving, keep trying, keep growing, because I know they will never stop doing the same for me and our community at large.

    I am but a small slice of Turing. But, I am Turing. And, Turing is an extension of me. But, more importantly it is an extension of many who are not me. And, it is an organism that will never be complete. It will grow and evolve and iterate to become more than any one person ever could be. It already has done that, and it will only grow stronger.

    Thinking about what Turing might give you? All the above and more. 

    But, more importantly, one should be thinking about what one can give to Turing. For this is the mindset that will enable one to obtain the most successful outcome.

    Giving yields getting in this community. 

    If you give yourself, your effort, your trust, your energy, and your mind to Turing, you will get more than you had ever dreamed a "code-school" could possibly provide.

    Thank you, again and again, thank you Turing. 

    Response From: Jeff Casimir of Turing
    Title: Executive Director
    Thursday, Aug 29 2019
    Thanks, Tim, for now spending your free time mentoring and guiding the next generations. We're already seeing dropouts trending down and graduation trending up thanks to your work.
  • Charlie C.  User Photo
    Charlie C. • Software Engineer • Graduate Verified via LinkedIn
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    I attended the backend program at Turing school in March 2017 (1703). I worked in public libraries for about a decade before discovering a passion for coding. Code school seemed to be the most efficient way to accomplish a career change. I chose Turing because it was the longest, most in depth, and most well-reviewed of Denver's options. I also appreciated that it was non-profit.

    I did the backend program, graduated after 6 months or so, had a job within a couple weeks of graduation. I'm about a year and a half into my software engineering career now. I’m a full stack engineer, which means I do front end, back end, and devops. Turing prepared me for this. I am absolutely loving every moment if it. 

    Of course, while I was in the Turing basement, I don't think I'd describe it as love. I worked 12-16 hours a day, seven days a week throughout the entire program. For seven months, I didn't have a day off, I didn’t see my family or friends, I didn't read or hike or have any hobbies. I’m not usually a crier, but for seven months, I coded and I cried; and, because Turing time is precious, I coded while crying because it’s more efficient! Part of that is my fault for being overly intense about achievement and learning, but part of that is the stressful nature of the program (there’s a row of small rooms near the kitchen that are officially called “phone booths” but are unofficially referred to by students as the “crying rooms”). But, I learned what I needed to learn, I finished, got a job as an actual software engineer, have the tools I need to be good at my job. And, you guys: my job is super dope

    I absolutely recommend the program, but feel the need to point out that my cohort lost about half of its students along the way. Either they left the program entirely or stayed back to repeat a module. It is one of the hardest code schools — that’s why it has such a great reputation with employers — but not everyone makes it through. That’s part of the stress of the program is seeing this happen to other people and being terrified that it might happen to you in a few weeks. What if you work as hard as you can and it’s not enough?

    I don't say so to discourage you from attending, but rather if you choose to attend, I encourage you to set yourself up for success: Do all the pre work, including the extra extensions. Don't plan long hikes on weekends or camping trips during intermissions. Say “farewell for now” to your family and friends. Budget for eating out a lot if you don't have someone to cook for you. Invest in dry shampoo. Listen to the teachers and don’t get mad at them when they tell you to Google it. You need to hear that. And show up every day ready to work harder and longer than you probably have ever before. It's a long 7 months, but it's only 7 months.

    If it’s what you want and you’re willing to put in the work, it’s totally worth it.

    Response From: Jeff Casimir of Turing
    Title: Executive Director
    Thursday, Aug 29 2019
    I weighs heavily on me to think about all the students who haven't graduated. Folks who spent time, energy, and money to figure out it just wasn't for them. We've worked to improve and deepen our prep programs before people show up along with constantly refining our instructional content, methodology, and execution. I'm committed to achieving a 90% graduation rate and 90% employment within 90 days of graduation. With the help of people like you and Keegan out there proving that the model works and opening one door after another, we'll get there.
  • Adam Lusk  User Photo
    Adam Lusk • Software Developer • Graduate Verified via GitHub
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    I was a struggling musician with a Master's. Now I'm a well-paid software engineer thanks to Turing, and I couldn't be happier. If you are considering a boot camp to learn software, look to Turing first.

    The program lives up to its reputation. It is very difficult and time consuming, and the staff is extremely knowledgeable and caring. If you get through it, you'll have a portfolio full of web apps to show to potential employers that students coming out of universities with CS degress lack. And there is a very inclusive atmosphere that invites a diverse group of people to share ideas and experiences with each other to develop all kinds of empathy, a desparately needed skill in any industry. 

    Just go there already and make your life better while making everybody else's life better with the technology you will build. 

    Response From: Jeff Casimir of Turing
    Title: Executive Director
    Thursday, Aug 29 2019
    Why are there so many musicians turned programmers? People typically talk about the patterns of music being similar to the patterns of programming, but I think it's more behavioral. Musicians learn to practice, critique, and revise. The small details that might go unnoticed are your stumbling blocks you can't get over. So you work and work and work to fix it. Practice, critique, do it again. Thanks for making it work.
  • Gray Smith  User Photo
    Gray Smith • Software Developer • Graduate Verified via GitHub
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    I very much enjoyed my time at Turing and got an amazing new job a little more than a month out from graduating. I considered several different bootcamps and the thing that sold me on Turing was the staff and the commitment to excellence. Turing is a single-location non-profit and the founders are down in the basement day in and day out critically analyzing everything they do and continuously improving the curriculum. I’m actually jealous of the current students because I feel like the curriculum has gotten markedly better even since I’ve been there a few months ago. 
     
    Turing also has a very good reputation with employers because their graduates are actually job ready. Turing is very hard especially if you’ve never done any previous programming (most students haven’t so its normal). Prep work before starting is crucial to your success in the program in my opinion. They are currently working on Module 0 to help people prepare. As hard as it is, Turing is a lot of fun! The projects are awesome and you will make some really good friends. The camaraderie and mutual support in the basement is infectious. The teachers are also excellent and very committed to the students. 
     
    You will get a job after Turing and a lot of graduates are making really good money right out of school. However, you have to work hard for it and make sure all your ducks are in a row (networking, projects, personal site, interview skills, LinkedIn). The alumni network is strong and the career services people are great. They will help you with all this stuff if you put in the work.
     
    I would highly recommend Turing to anyone who is interested in programming as a career. If you’re not sure, go check out a ‘Try Turing’. If you like it, sign up for the program and start preparing right away! 10/10 would enroll again. 
    Response From: Jeff Casimir of Turing
    Title: Executive Director
    Friday, Aug 30 2019
    I'm glad it all worked out for you, Gray! You're right that both (A) the curriculum and structures have improved over time and (B) preparation can make a big difference. 

    On (A), some early students who now mentor have said to me "I don't think I would have passed [given the demands/expectations today]," and they're right. I think we still have a lot to learn/build to make things truly excellent, and I'm excited for some of the changes coming down the pipe in the next few months.

    On (B), we're just about to graduate the first Mod 0 participants and have seen a marked decrease in the repeat and drop-out rates. It's convinced me that technical prep is helpful, but life prep is the most important. People who have their budget, transportation, housing, food, and personal relationships all sorted before they start can really focus 100% and find success. When some of those things are off, people can only put in 90% or 80% of their focus, then they just can't keep up.

    We look forward to seeing where you go from here!
  • Life Changer
    - 1/24/2019
    DW  User Photo
    DW • Frontend Software Developer • Graduate Verified via LinkedIn
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    I know its been repeated in review after review, but the decision to enroll as a student in Turing's frontend program completely changed my life. To anyone looking to make a career switch into software development, I highly recommend attending the Try Turing weekend to get a feel for the instruction style and atmosphere. It won’t be easy, and it will take everything you’ve got for all 7 months, but if you put in the hard work, the benefits of this program are incredible!

    Response From: Jeff Casimir of Turing
    Title: Executive Director
    Friday, Aug 30 2019
    It's great to see you out there on the second job, proving that hard work pays off.
  • Josh Thompson  User Photo
    Josh Thompson • Software Developer • Graduate Verified via LinkedIn
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    I graduated from college in 2011 with a major in Political Science and a minor in "International Studies", whatever that is.

    I have never, ever used the "skills" I gained in college. No one has ever asked to look at my resume, or asked me about my college education.

    The skills I gained in Turing, on the other hand, are extremely relevant. I'm now a software developer, and I'm about 1.5 years into my first job.

    I suspect my entire working career will fall into two categories:

    1. Pre-Turing
    2. Post-Turing

    I'm feeling really good about my post-Turing career. I enjoy the work I do every day, and I'm well paid. I have significant growth opportunity in my career, and I have a healthy work-life balance. I can spend time with my wife and family, friends, etc.

    I appreciate what Turing does every day, and contribute time (and money!) to their efforts. I mentor students, I donate to the school, I refer many friends to Turing. To date, FOUR of my friends have gone through the program, and all are equally thrilled with it.

    After I finished Turing, I paid off the $15k I owed for Turing, and the $15k I had left in student loans, in less than a year. Now all the extra income just goes straight to savings.

    I wrote up a bit about my experience here: https://josh.works/turing-retrospective

    I think Turing is a great use of time and money. I strongly suggest you do the work of setting yourself up for success at Turing, across financial and emotional domains. Take out a loan if necessary, but don't try to work a job while in Turing.

    Plan on putting your regular life on hold while at Turing. Work hard to get through the prework, and then some. Work hard, and sleep at least eight hours a day. When you're done, do what they say to get a job, and you'll get a job. Your life will be changed.

    Response From: Jeff Casimir of Turing
    Title: Executive Director
    Friday, Aug 30 2019
    It's one thing to graduate hundreds of developers over the years, but are things better today than they were two or four years ago? Are more doors open? Are grads better trained? The action and energy invested by the alumni network will determine the magnitude of our success. Amongst that network, there are the few who you know are always ready to show up. Panel for new students? Josh is there. Someone needs advice in Slack? Josh is there. Mentor? Josh. Organizing event? Josh.

    Thank you for your tireless commitment to making every next generation successful.
  • Eric Wahlgren-Sauro  User Photo
    Eric Wahlgren-Sauro • Software Engineer Verified via LinkedIn
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    I graduated from Turing in June of 2017. I attended the program for eleven months after having repeated two modules. I'm currently at work and want to be quick so if I don't mention something assume it was amazing, 5/5. The professional development I found to be mostly busy work. I already had a LinkedIn set up and in a healthy state. I knew, given my personality, using Twitter wasn't how I was going to find connections and therefore wasn't valuable. College had taught me already how to assemble a decent resume so that wasn't a learning curve. The most valuable part of all the PD was the mod 5 content. I'll link to part 1/3. That put a fire under my butt to really nail my interviews and treat each with great care. Those videos basically showed me to never assume you've made it until you've made it. The only other thing I thought wasn't maximum potent value add were weekly gear up sessions. Every Friday we would take a couple hours to dive in on a topic of controversy and while this is a fun exercise at best you leave it being on the "right" side of the argument and at worst you lose ground with peers and instructors. I think just leaving that off the table for consideration would be a benefit to Turing.

    Briefly, let's talk about the amazing. Turing is hands down, the best education regarding any subject matter I have received. Everyone at the program is there because they want to be and that makes a world of difference in how much effort I put into the work. There are no games around work that can be skipped and work that really matters. No, it all matters and someone has thought deeply about why that content shouldn't end up on the cutting room floor. 

  • Kathleen Yruegas  User Photo
    Kathleen Yruegas • Graduate Verified via LinkedIn
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    8 months ago, I was working as a financial aid officer at a small school and I was bored out of my mind. Career growth was small and I knew I wanted to do something that challenged me and elevated my current level of living. Through a lot of research and talking to alumni, I settled on Turing School. I started in June 2018 in the Back End Engineering program and just graduated a few weeks ago (January 2019). The down and dirty is Turing was the most difficult, yet rewarding thing I have ever done.

    The work load is intense. I spent the better of 50-70 hours per week working on projects and studying. Stress levels were high, work-life balance was very very hard to maintain and most of us really didn't have much of a life outside of Turing. We were in it together though and the support amoung my classmates and the staff was amazing. The friends I made over those 7 months will be my friends forever, no doubt! I have a family and kids and juggling those responsibilites with school was very very difficult. But holy crap I learned so much!!! More than I thought I was capable of! I didn't have a background in software, just some exploring here and there, but I can now create full web apps! I surpassed all expectations I had of myself and Turing surpassed all expectations I had of the school. The community is amazing, there is tons of support and resources if someone is needing technical help, emotional help, job search help, etc. The mentor and alumni community is strong and they are almost always willing to help however they can. 

    From my graduating cohort of 16 people in the Back End program, one of us had a job offer at graduation. Many have had multiple interviews and are progressing in the job search. Turing has great support in this area and if you do the things they tell you, you will be successful! 

    If I had to do it again, I would in a heartbeat. Those 7 months were emotionally strenuous, stress levels were crazy, I cried many a time, but Turing helps you push through, dig in, and learn how to code. The program is extremely immersive as it needs to be to teach you so much in such a short period of time. The in-person structure was key for me. Having that community and accountability was the reason for my success. We did individual and group projects which allowed us to learn more from our peers and to build our collaborative skills as well. (Read: great for employement!!!) 

    I could go on forever about why Turing was so great, but if you really want to see what it's like, talk to an alumni, attend a Try Turing event, or attend some sort of information event.

    I would absolutely recommend Turing, but one who might attend should be aware of the time commitment. If you have questions, you can find any Turing alumni on LinkedIn and they will most likely be happy to talk to you about the program! 

  • :thumbsup
    - 1/23/2019
    Nicholas J  User Photo
    Nicholas J • Software Engineer • Graduate Verified via GitHub
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    Plenty has already been said about this program in other reviews so I'll keep this brief.

    My life will forever be divided in my mind into two distinct periods: before I attended Turing and after I attended Turing.

    It was a transformational experience for me in ways I never expected, it's impact going far beyond just my career or salary. I couldn't be happier with my decision to attend.

  • Jesse Pinkman  User Photo
    Jesse Pinkman • Software engineer • Student Verified via GitHub
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    I attended Turing for eight months. I had a decent overall experience, and ended up getting an amazing job after only completing 3/4 of the program. I learned what I needed to in order to excel in my current job. I think that there are several things that could be changed at turing however. Firstly, Turing promotes transparency, yet doesn't release statistics on how many students end up repeating a module. Most of the students that I knew ended up repeating one or more modules. Turing should release these statistics and realize that in order for people to save up an appropriate amount of money and plan ahead, they need to be honest about the module repetition system. I also think they should re-evaluate how they assess and deal with possible cases of academic dishonesty, especially when it comes to accusing entire classes of cheating. My entire class was accused multiple times, even though we all knew that the accusations weren't legitimate, and as far as I know, no one was actually singled out(which would be pretty easy to figure out in that its CODE). Overall, I met a lot of amazing people, learned a lot, but was dissapointed in the general management.

    Response From: Jeff Casimir of Turing
    Title: Executive Director
    Wednesday, Jan 23 2019
    Keeliana,

    I'm excited to hear that your job has been amazing and leads to more great things in your future.

    In our industry-standard CIRR reports linked on this page or findable on https://cirr.org/data , there are lines for "How many students graduate within 100% of published program length (on-time)?" and "How many students graduate within 150% of published program length". The difference between those, currently about 8%, represents the percentage of students who repeat or take time off and still graduate. Amongst the students who don't graduate there are, of course, a high percentage of repeaters. The typical ratio is for a Module 1 class of about 28 students to see four repeat Mod 1. Then the numbers typical go down each mod with 2-3 repeaters in Mod 2, 1-2 in Mod 3, and none in Mod 4.

    Personally, the module-repeat system is one of the things I am most proud about at Turing. Few other programs have any meaningful assessments or checkpoints in their academic program. Over the years we have seen many students struggle, repeat, and succeed. In another program, they would have either just dropped out or, worse, spent their entire time at the bottom of the class always a bit behind. That's bad for their skill development, bad for their psyche, and bad for their classmates. 

    We've also implemented the Mod 0 curriculum to cut down some of the reasons people dropout early or need to repeat modules: insufficient life planning (budgets, scheduling, etc) and foundational technical skills (using files and folders, text editors, etc). As you mentioned, some students don't make a realistic budget for their time at and after the program (allowing for both potential mod repeats and time to job hunt). Financial pressure/stress typically undercuts their academic progress, leading to poor results. My hope is that Mod 0 will mean more students have a healthy financial life leading to better academic performance and a dramatic change in the stats for 2019 and beyond.

    On the topic of Academic Dishonesty, it's surely complicated. We have a documented academic integrity policy in our student handbook and review it with students in the early days of the program. Nevertheless, in a world where everything is posted to GitHub, it's tempting for students to short-circuit their own learning by copying code. When we find situations of suspected copying, we always have multiple staff members look at the submitted code and the suspected source. It's usually pretty clear.

    In most cases we're able to give students a private/confidential warning, they're terrified, and it never happens again. Occasionally it can become a trend amongst a cohort, in which case we choose to both have individual/private conversations and whole-group discussion. From there, a second violation will usually lead to dismissal from the program. Thankfully we've only had to dismiss about six students for multiple violations of the academic integrity policy.

    I hope this clears up some of your concerns.
  • Life Changing
    - 9/19/2018
    Melena S  User Photo
    Melena S • Software Engineer • Graduate Verified via GitHub
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    Making the decision to go to Turing was terrifying but I've never felt better about a decision in my life. 

    The curriculum is intentionally designed to give you the skills and underlying understanding that it takes to succeed as a developer. The instructors and staff are passionate and lovely people. The program is very demanding (60 hrs a week minimum to get by, and you'll probably want/need to do more), but with dedication is totally doable and the community really comes together to support each other.

    I absolutely love the job I have now, but I miss that basement.

  • Erin B.  User Photo
    Erin B. • Software Engineer • Graduate Verified via GitHub
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    Attending the backend program at Turing was hands-down the most challenging and rewarding educational experience of my life (previously I completed undergraduate and master's degrees from a large state university). I chose this program for its strong curriculum, educational integrity, and non-profit mission, and I am so happy I learned to code at Turing. With any immersive/intensive experience, you must go into it expecting to do nothing else while in the program; you cannot work outside of the program, you must line up help with childcare and household duties, you should not plan any trips or weekend getaways over the seven-month period, and you must put your entire focus on your learning (and in many cases relearning how to learn in a context like Turing). I basically told my friends and family, "see you in seven months." If you cannot manage your time in that way while also getting 8 hours of sleep each night and other self-care you may need, you may struggle in this program. You must limit distractions and become incredibly self-reliant when it comes to asking for help (from other students, mentors, etc.) and seeking solutions outside of class. If you are the type who always did well in school, this program will humble you (which I find appropriate given how humbling the career of software developer can be). You will learn how to communicate well and collaborate with a team through group projects.

    You will be expected to manage your own job hunt (there is no "placement service" although Turing is well-known/respected among hiring managers and employers often come to Turing to find candidates), but the Turing curriculum includes great professional-development sessions and resources to prepare you to do so successfully. Turing provides excellent instruction and a lot of wonderful resources, but in the end, you are in charge of your success in the program and job hunt. If you get behind or need more instruction, you have the option to repeat a module (there are four modules in the seven-month program) for an additional charge.

    Turing is hard, stressful and relentless in ways I'd never experienced before, but it's also fun, inclusive and definitely worth it. If I had to do things over again, I would have done considerably more pre-work and online learning before starting the program—possibly like six months' worth of part-time solo studying since I didn't come from a technical background. I also highly recommend attending one of the "Try Coding" workshops Turing runs on weekends before deciding to enroll. Once you're in: Keep repeating to yourself, "This is really hard, but I can do this" because it's true, and just keep going.

Turing Outcomes


59%
On-Time Graduation Rate
56%
In-Field Employed
$72,800
Median Salary

100% of students intended to seek in-field employment within 180 days of graduating. 0% of students did not intend to seek in-field employment.Below is the 180 Day Employment Breakdown for 68 graduates included in report:

180 Day Employment Breakdown:

Full-time employee
39.7%
Full-time apprenticeship, internship or contract position
10.3%
Short-term contract, part-time, or freelance
5.9%
Started a new company or venture after graduation
0.0%

Employed out-of-field
0.0%
Continuing to higher education
%
Not seeking a job for health, family, or personal reasons
%

Still seeking job in-field
36.8%

Could not contact
4.4%

Salary Breakdown:

97% of job obtainers reported salaries. 2% of job obtainers were hired by the school itself.

Notes & Caveats:

Thanks!