HackerYou offers 9-week, full-time and 6-week, part-time courses in Toronto for people who want to learn to code. HackerYou is ideal for people looking to climb the corporate ladder, upgrade their skills, or start a new career. The program focuses on hands-on, project-based learning from industry-leading professionals with small classes and a 10:1 ratio of students to instructors.
Recent HackerYou News
- December 2016 Coding Bootcamp News Roundup
- September 2016 Coding Bootcamp News Roundup + Podcast
- Guide to Coding Bootcamps in Canada
Recent HackerYou Reviews: Rating 4.95
Advanced Web Development (Part-time)
This course will give students the skills needed to design and create a responsive website for laptops, phones, tablets, and beyond using the latest HTML5 and CSS3 techniques. It will also dive deeper into CSS and teach participants the very latest and greatest CSS3 techniques for creating even richer web experiences.
- Minimum Skill Level
- Students must have basic HTML and CSS knowledge, or have completed Introduction to Web Development (or equivalent) to take this course.
Web Development Immersive (Bootcamp)
- Minimum Skill Level
- Ontario Secondary School Diploma or equivalent, or for Mature Students, you must have achieved a score of 18 on the Wonderlic Mature Test.
- Placement Test
- Minimum Skill Level
- Placement Test
UX Design Fundamentals (Part-time)
Forget about other UX courses you’ve heard about - this course goes far beyond just wire-framing. In this course, you’ll dive into topics such as cognitive design patterns in UI & UX, micro-interactions principles, personals and mental models, interaction design foundations, the art & science of interviewing users, and finally, visual language principles, and more. As always, lessons will be discovered by participants through a series of hands-on, project-based exercises, and through a final project where students will have the chance to use design thinking to solve a specific, real-world problem of their choosing. This will help bring all the concepts together with an original, portfolio-worthy display of their UX skills.
- Minimum Skill Level
- This course is perfect for people working as designers or developers, as well as graduates of our part-time design or web development courses.
- Placement Test
Advanced UX Design (Part-time)
In this course, students will explore advanced topics such as emotional design, empathy mapping, systematic design, human-centred design and user testing. Students will improve and apply their skills to effectively define problems, scope target audiences, iterate, conduct “discovery phases,” conduct design research, prototype, critique, handle errors, and future map, among others. Lessons will be discovered by participants through hands-on, project based exercises. For their capstone project, students will use design thinking to solve a problem of their choosing, giving each student the opportunity to build a portfolio piece relevant to their interests. Have an idea for an app? Use this project to finally give it the attention it deserves by taking the idea through every step of the UX Design process. You’ll create a unique portfolio piece that showcases your UX skills - and maybe even a product ready for development!
- Minimum Skill Level
- Previous experience in UX Design, or our Introduction to UX course (or equivalent) required. Ideal for designers and developers looking to move into UX roles.
- Placement Test
- Minimum Skill Level
- Strong grasp of HTML & CSS
- Placement Test
Web Development Fundamentals (Part-time)
Join us for HackerYou's most popular part-time course. You'll learn HTML5 and CSS3, build websites and collaborate with a group of people just like you – people who know that learning to code is going to help them take their careers to the next level. With an intense focus on hands-on, project-based learning, this course will give you the opportunity to learn directly from some of Toronto’s most talented developers and and discover how to create beautiful, functional websites from scratch.
- Minimum Skill Level
- This course is designed for beginners.
Full Stack Masterclass (Part-time)
This unique course is designed to help bootcamp graduates prepare for the next stage in their career. You did it - through hard work and dedication, you became a professional developer sans computer science degree. But you know that there are things people learn in Computer Science programs that would be useful to you. If you could combine your practical web development skills with some of these foundational Computer Science concepts, all while applying what you’re learning to develop full-stack development skills, you’d be almost unstoppable. Enter HackerYou’s Full-Stack Masterclass. Using a format that’s entirely new to HackerYou based on what we know bootcamp graduates want and need, this 57-hour, nine-week part-time course is designed to fill in your gaps, push you to level up and ultimately narrow the gap between you and the Full-Stack Developer you admire most.
- Minimum Skill Level
- Code 2175). Freelance web developers are welcome to apply. This course is ideal for Bootcamp graduates (whether you attended HackerYou’s bootcamp or another one) and self-taught developers.
- Placement Test
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The class was lead by Drew Minns who is a great teacher and mentor. He has a laid-back but professional attitude and has a great sense of humour, which is great because JS can at times seem so dry and static. He also brought his dog Prudence in to class which is always the best in learning environments.
The class size is great - I never felt too shy to ask a question, and that's coming from an INFJ personality.
The mentors were great, too (Trudy Jordan and Garrett) and were always available for quick questions in-class, after-class, and over Slack. I enjoyed when they took over a class because they showed us a different way of thinking about problems than our instructor might have.
I took the Web development course (fundamentals and advanced).
Teachers and mentors make it easy to learn with them and they are always happy to help. The projects you will work on during the class will definitely help you to assimilate all the information from the class.
This is going to be a bit lengthy. But if you're researching which bootcamp to attend, this will 100% be worth the read. I've sectioned my review into different paragraphs for easier reading.
There is an interview process before being accepted into the bootcamp, but that process has changed as of now. Hopefully you can get a general feel by reading this though. I applied online and was contacted very soon afterwards to set up a meeting with Heather Payne, CEO of HackerYou. When I met with Heather, she was incredibly nice and knew exactly the right questions to ask to ensure I would be successful in the bootcamp. This was not an 'interview' type of feel, but rather a way for Heather to really gauge what I was looking for and what my current skills were. It felt more like this meeting was simply to make sure that I would be a good fit for the pace, the curriculum, and the overall experience of being in a 9 week intensive bootcamp environment - and trust me, you need to know the answers to these if you want to be successful in the bootcamp! Heather was amazing at answering all of my questions. Make sure to come with prepared questions, as it's important to understand the ins and outs of the bootcamp while deciding what is right for you. Some questions you might have are in regards to support finding temporary accommodations while being at HackerYou (answer: they will try to help as much as possible!), educational and emotional support (answer: you are in VERY good hands in both regards. The entire staff will 100% help you in any way they can to make sure you're feeling good about the class content, and making sure you're emotionally okay), etc. Don't be afraid to ask questions, to voice your concerns, and to just share your excitement for this new journey you're about to take.
Pace of the Program
This was a very intense program, starting off a little slower so the students can get their feet wet, get accustomed to their new surroundings, and have fun getting to know each other. The first two weeks focused on HTML and CSS. There were more class lectures throughout the day at first, in order to get everyone at the pace needed to really dive in once it got more intense. There will be lots of projects, and of course, project work time. The instructors are seriously AMAZING at helping you through your projects, so don’t be worried about having a lack of work time and/or guidance throughout.
The pace and intensity will of course, begin to pick up as the bootcamp continues. There will be challenges, but it is simply a part of learning so much content in a short period. It in no way should deter you from being in the bootcamp - everyone in the class goes through down points at some point or another, and everyone is there to support each other the whole way through. In fact, this is a great example of why it is so important to ask questions, and seek support from fellow students. There will be content that you may find more challenging, and you may feel like you’re the only one who doesn’t get something, and that in turn makes you afraid to ask a question about it. I can guarantee you, someone else is having that exact same challenge. Talk to your instructors, and your fellow students, and you will feel so much better. I guarantee you - bring your passion. excitement, and an open mind, and you will succeed!
The curriculum may change, depending on what’s going on in the tech industry. HackerYou is incredible at keeping up with the pace of what’s going on in the development field, and catering and altering their curriculum to that. For my cohort, React and Firebase were added to the curriculum. I believe for the cohort that followed my own, CSS Grid was added as well. It was awesome content, and the instructors know their stuff! Go here to find out what’s in the current curriculum at HackerYou: http://hackeryou.com/web-development-immersive.
The environment is awesome - you will have plenty of space to collaborate with other students, or if you’re wanting some independent work time, there is no shortage of tables, chairs, or couches to go hang out on. There is a small kitchen where you can make coffee, put your lunch in the fridge, or just hangout and chat with people. Side note: every Wednesday is salad club, and sometimes even taco club :)
Instructors / Staff
Here is the most amazing aspect of HackerYou. The instructors, the CEO, and every single person working on that team, were incredible. To say I was blown away by the HackerYou team and how amazing they were and continue to be, would be a vast understatement. The educational and emotional support you will receive from the HY team is truly something amazing. My cohort’s instructors were Simon, Ryan, and Sylvia. Not only were they total geniuses with the class content, but they were all so down-to-earth, caring, and so much fun to learn from. They had our class laughing like crazy, just as much as they were teaching us. For that reason, I highly doubt you will ever wake up and not want to go to class. The support does not stop there though - each and every member of the HY team is there for you, in every way they possibly can be. There will often be mornings when the whole team comes into the classroom, whether to give a talk on not giving up, how proud they are of you, or sometimes to play fun games to get our minds going in the morning. What you can take from this, is the moment you become a student at HackerYou, you can be sure that there will never be a shortage of support from the HackerYou team, and from the community. Of course, I couldn’t end this paragraph without talking about Heather Payne - the whole reason HackerYou exists! She is awesome and supportive, and really believes in the outcome of this bootcamp - and she won’t stop until every student is successful! I will be going more into exactly how amazing Heather is in the post-job hunting support section.
The HackerYou community is truly something incredible. The alumni are this group of amazing, very supportive, very helpful people. They will be there to help current students the whole way through your journey. Alumni help out by being bootcamp buddies, mentoring in fishbowl sessions, being available on Slack to answer questions, and more. I was blown away by this strong knit community, and am truly so thankful to belong to such an amazing group of people - and you can too!
Post-Job Hunting Support
The job hunting process is not necessarily a ‘fun’ process, and you will feel your ups and downs. However, stick to the instructions Heather will give you on how to succeed in this process, and good things will come, 100%. The support you will get post-bootcamp is one of a kind. Every Friday there will be a meeting where students will come meet with Heather, and discuss where you currently are in the job process. These meetings really help to get a sense of where you are at, where your fellow students are at, and really just continue to be there for each other for support. Heather will always have really great advice, and will make sure you are doing everything you can to be successful in finding a job. Heather will also be available by email, Slack, or by phone, on a regular basis to help you with any questions, concerns, or even just helping to format an awesome cover letter. I don’t believe there is a single other bootcamp that will have as much support in this process, as HackerYou has. The goal is typically to get a job within 3 months of graduating. I got my first job as a developer literally 3 months to the day I graduated! Listen to Heather’s advice, continue to be excited and passionate about this awesome new adventure you’re embarking on, and you will get that first job!
This was a long review, but it’s good to know exactly what you’re getting into when you are deciding on spending a lot of money on an intense program. What I can say overall is that as challenging and stressful as this experience was, I have zero regrets, and honestly, wish I could take the bootcamp again because it was so much fun. Believe in the process, and you will succeed :)
I took the part-time web dev course this summer while working full-time during the day at my regular job. As an instructor, Sarah did an awesome job keeping the classes upbeat, fun and relevant, especially for a technical heavy course. The class took place from 6:30 pm- 9 pm during on Tuesday and Thursday but not once felt like a drag after a long day at work. Was also really impressed by eh effort and quality of the 30-minute long video project review that she made for each of our individual projects in a class of 35 students. The feedback was constructive, detailed and personalized. Very much appreciated!
I really enjoyed my time as a student at HackerYou and wished that I could have been there longer! The instructors, mentors, and staff are all reallly great as they are not only knowledgeable, but really reach out to you to ensure that you get the best support and experience while at HackerYou.
I took the Intro/Advanced Web Development course this past summer just to get a feel of what basic coding was like. One of the best experiences of my life - the things that make this different from other crash coding schools and technical colleges are the mentors and the resources HackerYou gives. I'm hoping to take a few other part-time courses in the future and highly recommend this specific web dev course to people who are interested in coding!
I signed up for the class just looking to learn a new skillset, but the experience was so great that I've enrolled in the upcoming bootcamp session. The instructors did an amazing job at making the classes engaging yet challenging, and they aslo managed to keep the learning environment relaxed and fun.
While the amount of content and project deadlines may have felt daunting at times, it is definately rewarding as I was amazed at how much I actually know now that I've completed the course compared to when I first started. Not to mention the instructors are always willing to answer questions whether it be before or after class, or even during breaks, which is always helpful regardless of your coding level.
For anyone considering adding a new skillset I would highly recommend this course as I went from knowing next to nothing to feeling very confident in my web development abilites. and I can't wait to get started with the bootcamp where I'm confident I'll have a similar experience.
I just finished HackerYou's part-time web development course and I truly thought it was great. I went into it with little to no coding experience, with the intention of just wanting to have the skill to add to my resume. I ended up getting hooked and enrolling in the school's full time bootcamp which is coming up this fall.
The teachers were very good and engaging, they made sure to explain everything with a lot of detail/analogies, and coded along with us as they taught. They were very knowledgable about the material as well as information about the industry, and were always there to help and answer any questions.
I found the teaching methods and course material to be easy enough to follow along yet still somewhat challenging, making me want to learn more and more. The only thing I would suggest for them to improve is to allow for more time in between project deadlines, and for some order of the materials to be switched around (for example learning Sass earlier on so we can get more comfortable with it). All in all, I would highly reccomend HackerYou to anyone wanting to learn more coding skills whether they are total beginners or more advanced.
I had a wonderful time learning all about JS and jQuery during this spring course! The instructor and mentors were all incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. I loved that when we ran into issues, they challenged us to think about what might be going on with our code instead of just telling us how to fix it. They were also very approachable and not at all condescending, which is also what I value in an instructor or a mentor! The course is structured in a very logical way, and I definitely think that the exercises we did and the multiple projects that we worked on helped to solidify concepts and test our skills. With this new set of skills under my belt, I will finally be applying for a Junior Web Dev role at my existing company, and I can't wait!
Starting with just a HTML/CSS background, I learned how functions can enable users to interact with your pages. The course focuses on teaching you a lot of fundamental knowledge and basics. Combined together, this knowledge can be used to build some really build some really interesting programs on the browser.
I'm now able to send requests to API's and use the returned content to dynamically update a page. I feel more confident in my ability to work through problems and approach them step by step. The instructors are great, and their one on one guidance really helped unblock me when I was stuck.
It was a great overall crash course to user experience design that really delved into as much as one can cover within a span of 12 weeks. Ricardo was really engaging and helpful during class and there was never a dull moment when he was teaching. All of the mentors were great and always approachable and willing to chat when there was free time. It was good to have something tangible to work on as the project and I appreciated that it encompassed both the visual and research aspects. As a designer it was great learning about design approaches and how to implement them in my work. I'd recommend the course to anyone interested in UX design!
I took the Part Time Intro and Advanced Web Dev course in Spring 2017.
The curriculum was much more in depth that I was expecting, considering I had taken some online free coding courses in the past. But the instructors/mentors make sure that everyone is up to speed before moving on to new topics. They are totally fine answering any and all questions, even if you feel a little silly for asking them! And the code along exercises spaced throughout each class are extremely valuable to solidifying the skills you are building. And the three course projects really challenge you to apply everything you have learned, and really show you how much you have learned in just a short space of time!
I have never experienced such a welcoming and friendly environment, everyone is so willing to help each other and talk about their experiences, it is amazing!
I am really excited to apply to the full time bootcamp in the fall!
I had little design expereience coming in to this but it turns out that the material was easy enough to absorb and I also learned how to use Sketch to create my first project. The topics covered in the UX class were very interesting and it makes you see every day objects/processes differently. The instructors were very kind and always open to answering any questions. The space is clean and the location (Queen and Spadina) is easily accessible which is great since I attend class after work and it's an easy commute. I would highly recommend HackerYou because I'm sure the quality of their other classes are just as good.
The Part-Time Web Development course at HackerYou was exactly what I was looking for. It gave me a chance to "dip my toes" in the world of web development and gain a better idea if it was an industry I would be interested in transferring into.
The program provided me with an impressive amount of practical skill development. I went from knowing nothing about creating websites to creating 3 different sites over the duration of the course.
The teaching style is very hands-on and project based, allowing for an engaging classroom environment. There are also a number of "mentors" in addition to the class instructor who attend every class to help work through problems on-the-fly. Through the instructor and mentors, the students also get a glimpse of the breadth of the industry and potential careers/opportunities therein.
HackerYou's facilities are convenient, clean, modern and user-friendly. There is a lounge with kitchen, couches, etc. I felt very comfortable in the physical space.
Overall, I would recommend this program to anyone looking to get a better understanding of the wed development industry, and/or learn a set of in-demand and practical skills. I've decided to continue into the Web Development Full Time Immersive program in the summer and am looking forward to diving in full-time!
The part-time Web Development course at HackerYou has been a challenging and very rewarding experience. While the information was not hard to grasp, the amount of information was overwhelming at times. I found the 3 projects really pushed me to integrate all of the information in a way that made sense. The structure and flow of the course was very well organized and Anne was an incredible teacher. I absolutely loved her teaching style!! The mentors were very helpful and friendly and ready to help whenever you needed it. I took this course to fill in the gaps of my knowledge. I am a designer and have been building websites after I created one for myself. Once I started doing it for others I realized there was a limit to what I could accomplish with a template. After this course I feel confident that I can now get the results that I want and more. And the bonus is that I really enjoy coding. Thank you HackerYou for opening my eyes to the world beyond my computer screen.
I attended Hackeryou's PT Web-Dev course in Spring 2017. My instructor was Haris Mahmood and he was awesome. Super smart, funny, engaging, and easy to talk to. I have never been more excited to come to a class in my educational career and I am very grateful that I made the decision to attend Hackeryou as opposed to other tech schools in Toronto. I found the community very genuine and supportive and I made some great friends/ connections here. The projects were applicable to real- world scenarios and were a great way to practice the skills learned in lectures.
My journey at HackerYou began in the summer 2016 part time course and I was so immediately taken with the school’s vibe (think career-focussed fast paced but also unpretentious and relaxed learning environment) that I jumped right into the full time bootcamp that fall. My part-time instructors were Drew and Tiff, who did an excellent job of covering everything you need to know about HTML and CSS in a highly detailed and comprehensive way, while also being super chill. They seamlessly incorporated learning how to code with industry standards and best practices. I would recommend this course to anyone who is considering a career change or who is curious about how to make beautiful websites. Through my studies at HackerYou I have made a full career change and went from working in TV to a front end developer at a software company where my focus is working with the UX/UI team to create a beautiful product.
I took the part-time Intro + Advanced course at HackerYou in 2014!
The style of learning – hands-on and project-based with lots of little exercises in the mix – was super beneficial for me! Not only is this the way I personally learn best, but it also means that at the end of the program, each student has real, working projects to show off to friends, family, or employers. You can point to a website or web application with pride and satisfaction (something I experienced rarely in other formal educational environments). I was even able to use a HackerYou project as the basis of a work project (bonus points for getting paid to learn!).
With the skills I developed at HackerYou, I gained a sureness in my abilities I don't think I would otherwise have. And at work, I moved more quickly into complex projects with less assistance from co-workers and greater success (and more positive feedback from my bosses).
I can't say enough good things about HackerYou. I just completed the part-time Intro to Web Development and Advanced Web Development courses a few weeks ago, and it has been such a wonderful learning experience. At HackerYou, the instructors and mentors are so knowledgeable, insightful, easygoing, and patient, and it truly makes the entire learning experience unparalleled.
It was really useful having so many practical in-class exercises that really solidify the concepts you learn so that you can easily apply them in the real world.
Moreover, HackerYou has the most supportive and welcoming community for both current students and alumni, and I'm so glad to be a part of it!
I was pretty jaded towards school by this point, but HackerYou really turned that around for me. I'd gone through University and colleges and had sort of bounced around a few career paths. I was wary going back to school, especially a tech bootcamp after all the "real school" i'd done... it was super intense, I met some great people and in a very short time I was a working professional in the field.
I started my HackerYou experience in the summer of 2016 when I took the part-time Web Development course, from there I transitioned into the full-time immersive bootcamp. I was a relative newbie to the coding world and HY was essential in helping me to break through the barriers of getting started and really understanding the material. I am still learning everyday since finishing the bootcamp but that is part of what makes this a special experience. There is always new stuff to learn. I finished the bootcamp with a wealth of knowledge and a great portfolio that has already found me work and new contacts in the industry. The community is amazing, so supportive and passionate. I couldn't have done it without all the support. Currently I am freelancing and considering my options as it hasn't been too long since finishing.
Attending HackerYou is one of the best decisions I've ever made. I was a bit nervous going into it - I didn't have any prior coding experience, but I started out taking part-time web dev in the evenings with Anne Thomas, who was great. I learned a lot even just in part-time, and quit my retail job in January 2016 to attend the full-time immersive program. I loved it. It's a great environment to learn in - the instructors are knowledgeable and enthusiastic, as are the alumni, and the students in my cohort were incredibly supportive throughout this admittedly intense experience and became good friends. The community surrounding HackerYou is truly impressive. I got a job just shy of three months out of bootcamp (coaching through the job search process lasts as long as it takes you to find a job, which is super valuable), and I'm now working as a front-end developer at Rogers with lots of other HackerYou grads. I really feel like I learned solid skills that I can continue improving long past the length of the course.
Our latest on HackerYou
Welcome to our last monthly coding bootcamp news roundup of 2016! Each month, we look at all the happenings from the coding bootcamp world from new bootcamps to fundraising announcements, to interesting trends we’re talking about in the office. This December, we heard about a bootcamp scholarship from Uber, employers who are happily hiring bootcamp grads, investments from New York State and a Tokyo-based staffing firm, diversity in tech, and as usual, new coding schools, courses, and campuses!Continue Reading →
Welcome to the September 2016 Course Report monthly coding bootcamp news roundup! Each month, we look at all the happenings from the coding bootcamp world from new bootcamps to big fundraising announcements, to interesting trends. Of course, we cover our 2016 Outcomes and Demographics Report (we spent a ton of time on this one and hope everyone gets a chance to read it)! Other trends include growth of the industry, increasing diversity in tech through bootcamps, plus news about successful bootcamp alumni, and new schools and campuses. Read below or listen to our latest Coding Bootcamp News Roundup Podcast!Continue Reading →
Canadian bootcamps are working hard to develop the talent needed to keep up with Canada’s growing tech hubs. StartUp Genome ranks Toronto and Vancouver amongst the top 20 startup ecosystems in the world. The Canadian tech economy as a whole is being fueled by thriving companies such as Shopify, HootSuite, Kik, Wattpad, and Erkem. Their success has generated a lot of interest among investors.
In 2016, $157 million was invested into 418 Canadian companies by angel investors, according to the National Angel Capital Organization 2016 Angel Investing Report.Continue Reading →
Ahmed Omran is a passionate educator, web developer, and graduate of HackerYou in Toronto. Here, Ahmed describes "Learning Velocity," a measure of bootcamp efficacy, and how bootcamps can help their students accelerate through the course. Whether you're a student looking for advice or a bootcamp administrator looking to improve your students’ learning velocity, Ahmed is always available for a chat. Feel free to reach out to him on Twitter.
I was part of HackerYou’s first immersive development program as a student and later helped build the curriculum for subsequent cohorts. If there is one thing that I believe people should really focus on in bootcamps it's Learning Velocity. It's an informal measure of how much a person learns per unit of time. Keeping a high and consistent learning velocity is crucial.
If a student gets stuck then the learning stops and in a bootcamp environment students can't afford to fall behind. The learning obstacle needs to be dealt with right away. The student should of course try to "figure it out" but if it’s been 20 minutes and there is no progress then it’s time to ask for help. Taking enough time to figure it out -- without efficient help -- results in stress, tension and demotivation.
If the student is getting frustrated it's because they are not seeing the options that are available to them. They need someone to widen the lens by asking questions that lead to more options. A teacher/mentor/peer needs to use "growth responses" to point the student in the right direction. Answers get the student unstuck once but growth responses help the learner see how to navigate problems in a repeatable way.
Not all bootcamp experiences are equal. If you're considering applying to a program then you need to do your research and find out if the bootcamp has the proper support system. Find out if the bootcamp uses timely growth responses to keep learning velocity high. Ask them if they are committed to your learning velocity and what concrete steps do they take to accomplish this commitment.
Once you are immersed in the intense bootcamp experience make full use of the support system. Ask for help and advice as much as possible, ask questions about the material, and ask questions about your interests beyond the official curriculum. Don’t let pride, shyness or anything else get in the way of your learning. Your teachers, mentors and peers are there for a short period of time to help you so use the support system unabashedly.
To give you an example, HackerYou has a 1-to-8 mentor to student ratio and they use an app that my team developed to manage student questions efficiently. When HY students are working on a project and they get stuck, they communicate to everyone that they're stuck and the support system (mentors, teachers, peers) kicks in to get them help within minutes.
Bootcamps are a big departure from traditional education. Their immersive, intense instruction style has the potential to change our mainstream education system forever. But this is only if the proper structures are developed to ensure learning velocity stays high and no one falls behind or drops out who is genuinely trying.